Invisible battles: How one woman took turned her 6 year infertility journey into a mission to help others, with Abbe Feder

This episode dives deep into the world of infertility with guest Abbe Feder, an infertility coach and founder of InCircle Fertility, who shares her personal six-year battle with infertility and the birth of her twins via IVF. 

Abbe discusses the emotional weight of infertility, pregnancy loss, abortion, and how she pivoted her hardship into supporting others on similar paths. 

The episode uncovers the rollercoaster of medical interventions, the anguish of unexplained infertility, and emphasizes the significance of seeking assistance early. 

Abbe delves into the complexities of IVF, including the ethical and emotional debates surrounding embryo management, and responds to the repercussions of recent legal developments affecting IVF in Alabama. 

Additionally, the dialogue explores practical advice for supporting loved ones dealing with infertility, highlighting the necessity for empathy, understanding, and advocacy in navigating the challenging journey towards parenthood.

00:00 A Heartfelt Warning: The Journey Through Infertility

00:31 Introducing Abbe Feder: An Infertility Coach's Story

02:11 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Infertility and IVF

05:28 From Podcasting to Parenthood: A Fertility Journey

08:45 Navigating the Complexities of Pregnancy and Abortion

11:13 The Challenges of Postpartum and Parenting After Infertility

13:16 Supporting Each Other Through Infertility and Beyond

19:22 Personal Stories of Medical Necessity and Choice

25:26 Navigating the Complex Journey of Infertility

25:56 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Unexplained Infertility

26:14 A Personal Story of Trauma and Acceptance

27:39 The Lifelong Impact of Infertility

28:49 Building a Supportive Community and Coaching Others

29:10 The Intricacies of Infertility Coaching

33:07 Supporting Friends and Family Through Infertility

37:08 The Controversial Case in Alabama and Its Implications

46:25 The Importance of Kindness and Empathy in Parenting

Transcript

0:00

Hi friends, you know, that we love to start the episode with something clever from an outtake of the episode. But today I think it's important. To give you a warning that while this episode is absolutely incredible. And I think a must listen for everybody. It is heavily centered around infertility. Pregnancy loss, abortion. And all of the heavy emotions that tie into that. So if you are not in a place where this would be helpful to you. Please be forewarned. However, Abbe Feder, our guest is an infertility coach. And could definitely help you on your path. So just keep that in mind and thank you for being here.

Abbe Feder: 1:18

I got faith in you girl.

Cheryl: 1:19

everybody, welcome back. We're doing this right, right Colleen?

Colleen: 1:24

listen, I'm I, I think I am doing it right because you're going to let me do the intro again. So I think that I'm winning on this

Cheryl: 1:32

Yes, you've graduated my friend.

Colleen: 1:34

and I do. I'm going to apologize that I sound like that. I'm in the bathroom because my microphone is not working. So we're just we're just doing what we're doing here because. We'll just roll with it. Okay, everybody? I am very, very excited. Today we have a guest that has been my good friend for, I don't know, since 2016?

Abbe Feder: 1:55

Maybe like eight

Colleen: 1:56

Yeah, something like that. I know. Abbe Feeder is here today and she is You know, besides just being like an amazing, gorgeous, fabulous, accomplished woman, award winning woman, she is here to talk to us today. She had a six year journey with infertility, fertility, and post that kind of got into deciding that she was going to help others because she'd been literally through everything. So she has a company now called in circle fertility and she does coaching and a lot more than that though, right? I mean, like there's, there's so much to that. So we're so excited to have you here. I'm so, so happy that you're here. So tell us, tell us about all the things that I didn't tell everybody about.

Abbe Feder: 2:44

Okay. I'm so happy to be here. I feel like your intros are fantastic personally. That's exactly right. So, and Colleen and I met during like the height of my infertility and she was like, um, I'm pregnant with my third.

Colleen: 2:57

Yeah, that was really insensitive. That's really good.

Abbe Feder: 3:01

No, no, I was always happy for you. Always happy for you. So yeah, my husband and I did, you know, we thought we would have no problem like most people do. Nobody goes into a relationship wanting kids thinking they're going to have an issue you know, we had it exactly planned out when we were going to start trying, where we were going to start trying. It was on a trip to Italy. We tried once. My husband was convinced we were pregnant, like on the flight home. He was like, Oh my God, it was going to work perfectly. then the first month, of course we were not pregnant. Which like totally normal takes average six to seven months for, for most people. But like one month of failure and he was like, okay, here starts the journey. You know? And I was like. Yeah, God, like we're gonna have to try one more time before it works and literally from then it was six years So I know it's really crazy to think about we did not get medical intervention right away I think of it was like we didn't want to admit We really kept being like this this isn't gonna be how we do this. Like it's gonna work out Which, know, of course, now that I did emerge on the other side, I have twins who are five, looking back, maybe I would have done things differently, but In the moment that was, I made the best decision that I had with the information that I had at the moment, which I think is so important. It's all we can really do. I didn't want it to be part of my story,

Colleen: 4:27

Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 4:28

now that I have my beautiful babies, I'm like, Oh my God, why didn't I jump into the, you know, IVF bandwagon sooner? So the one thing I will say, and we talk, I talk about this with clients all the time is just that every piece of it takes longer than you want it to. So when you feel like you're not ready. Make an appointment. You can always cancel the appointment, but like you get ahead of it instead of waiting for it to be on your, on, instead of waiting for you to be on its timeline, the medical professional timeline, you know? So yeah, when I emerged on the other side, I was just like, there has to be an easier way to go through this. So let's figure out what that is. And that's how my company was. No pun intended, born.

Colleen: 5:09

So, tell us, and by the way, everyone, Abbe's being very modest and like, The amount, the amount of stuff that you guys have gone through is, is pretty incredible. And to come out on the other side, being like so gracious and so lovely and so willing to help others is pretty incredible. Tell us before we get into encircle, tell us about the podcast. Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 5:36

during this whole time, my husband, this was like, so my kids were born in 2018. So the podcast revolution had not happened yet. were no fertility podcasts out there. we were so frustrated with our friends and our family, they weren't doing anything wrong, but they just didn't get what we were going through. And so we decided to grab a recorder and just start basically using the recorder, kind of like a default therapist. And talking to it with no judgements or opinions back, which is really nice, and explaining what we were feeling and what we were going through, and like, recording some of our fights, and then recording myself doing the shots, like, all the things, and we had no idea what it was going to be. my husband is a filmmaker and he happened to have known someone that was looking for kind of, they had a comedy podcast studio and they wanted a non comedy podcast. And so it was a really being in the right place at the right time and getting very lucky that we found this production company that was like, we want to produce this as an actual podcast. And so they did, they produced six episodes. We weren't sure where it was going to go. And you know, we, we brought the recorder into our doctor's office. Like literally I would hold a microphone while she was, you know, up me and we would interview her, like all the things. And we, during those six episodes on this journey, we did, I think two cycles, they both failed. Our doctor was kind of like, we don't think this is going to happen for you. started talking to a surrogate. All the things. And then we did one Hail Mary last 8th round of IVF that did work. so it kind of changed the whole podcast because we were doing the podcast to kind of figure out like how do you go through life not getting what you want.

Colleen: 7:25

Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 7:26

then we got pregnant and so we ended up making it like a limited series couldn't keep going obviously because we got pregnant and Amazon actually bought it and that was really exciting for us. So they bought it from this smaller production company. They paid to produce the final 6 episodes. Which was the rest of the pregnancy, which was also very dramatic. I ended up getting pregnant with three which was like insane after I'd have failed round after failed round. And the only thing we hadn't tried was putting three embryos in. My doctor was like, you want to put three in? Fine. You're crazy. It's not going to work. And then it worked and all three took, and I was not allowed to carry all three, which of course we knew, but we never thought was going to happen.

Cheryl: 8:09

My god,

Colleen: 8:10

Yeah. Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 8:14

I was going to be 40 when I delivered. I mean, they were like, it's your choice, but you basically have like a 97 percent chance that will lose one. And if it doesn't happen at the right time, it will cause at least another one to get lost. And at that point I was like. Okay. If there's three in there, I have a good shot of having one, which was my really only hope. So I was like, I'm going to do everything they tell me to do medically to get that one.

Cheryl: 8:39

Ugh,

Abbe Feder: 8:39

a miracle that I was able to keep too. Which is crazy.

Cheryl: 8:45

crazy.

Abbe Feder: 8:45

that's why Colleen's like, literally, you name it, she's been through it, we were just completely in shock. And we talk about it in the podcast because it was when abortion was sort of re put back on the table, pre overturn of Roe v. Wade, and we felt like need to know that this was like, yeah, I had an abortion with two other babies in there. It, like, that sounds psychologically, you know, but that was what I had to do to save the life of the two that I have.

Colleen: 9:14

In your own, right. There was risk. Yeah, and there was risk for you as well, like,

Abbe Feder: 9:20

Right.

Colleen: 9:21

was such a hard time, like,

Cheryl: 9:24

I had to have a medically necessary termination abortion when I was my very first pregnancy that I had. And talk about it all the time for a couple of reasons. One, that baby deserves the love as much as all the rest of my babies. the love and two that, that is not, is okay. Cause Alabama, like all this Roe V Wade being overturned. Like I'm so passionate about it because like, it was not, I was raised Catholic. That was never the journey that I expected that I was going to do, but no little girl wakes up. And. And thinks, when I grow up, I'm going to have an abortion. just can't wait to have an abortion. Like, fucking painful. I'm sure you still grieve that loss. the same way I still grieve the loss of mine. And it's like, just so stu The way that the world looks at it. Or a portion of the world. I don't think it's a large portion. But I think there's a portion of the world that's fucking angry about this.

Colleen: 10:20

it's not large, it's just loud.

Abbe Feder: 10:22

it's an, it's an out, right. Exactly. It's an outspoken portion of the world.

Cheryl: 10:28

a one termination with two others in there. How scary. Like,

Abbe Feder: 10:31

scary. And I again, did not think, you know, they were like, there's a chance that when we do one, another is going to go. But again, I was like, okay, it's still my best shot at having one healthy pregnancy and one healthy child.

Cheryl: 10:42

yeah.

Abbe Feder: 10:43

And like the other two No issues. Thank God. I had a very uneventful pregnancy after that, which I the trauma post abortion during pregnancy, post six years of infertility post two miscarriages was like insane, which a lot of my clients come to me they've had a loss or they're doing IVF and then they get pregnant and they're like, we're not going to stop working together. Right. Because you still need that hand to hold because it is a lot of trauma to process during the beginning stages of pregnancy.

Colleen: 11:13

in,

Cheryl: 11:13

and then let's talk about when the journey is so hard,

Abbe Feder: 11:17

Yeah,

Cheryl: 11:18

and everybody has their challenges. Everybody across the board. I know everybody has their challenges, but when the journey is so hard and then parenting doesn't look exactly like what you thought it looked like, guilt that you harbor around like, I should be more grateful for what I'm going through. But it doesn't change the fact that it's so fucking hard and my My therapist thought that that was probably a big reason why I had the postpartum depression with my first child that was born because I, for years had to get well enough to get pregnant again and and then I was fucking miserable with a colic child.

Abbe Feder: 11:54

Well, look, a sleepless night is a sleepless night, If you're getting no sleep and you're going through hell, it doesn't matter how you got there, right? Like you feel emotionally, hormonally, physically like crap. So it doesn't matter that it took six years and whatever it is. It's still, but yes, then you start

Cheryl: 12:09

And this is your dream come true. Yeah, like this dream is more like a nightmare at times.

Abbe Feder: 12:16

I mean, I thought I was going to want to spend every single second with them when they came, cause it took me so long to get them and I was like. Whoa, I cannot be a stay at home mom. I will lose my mind. But going into it, I thought, oh my God, like my prayers have been answered and I'm just gonna with them all the time and, and you, and that's one, that's a wonderful aspiration if that's what you want to do. I think it is the hardest job in the entire world.

Colleen: 12:41

oh my god, I've tried to do it twice, it's, goodbye, awful.

Abbe Feder: 12:47

amazing. Yeah.

Colleen: 12:48

I was, it only lasted like six months at most, and then I was like, absolutely not.

Abbe Feder: 12:53

Which is by the way, a long time, six months, six months is a long time. Like by three months I was like out looking for jobs that I didn't expect to look for, you know? And I was just surprised by it because you know, you think when you yearn and yearn and yearn for parenthood, you, you don't expect you're not going to want to be with them every minute. But no matter how much somebody talks to you and prepares you, you don't know until you're there.

Colleen: 13:16

Yeah, I mean, talk to us a little bit about because listen, I have learned so much from Abbe, like how to like, first of all, about fertility treatments and all the process and then also just like how better to support people going through this process or like. All the, I think you made a list one time of like all the things that you do, you do not, you had a blog, I think all the things you do not say to somebody going through the process. But one of the things that I thought was really poignant that you talk about was just like post, like when you are successful. In having a child, and then there's that like survivor's guilt situation that happens afterwards. Like, I think sometimes as a complete outsider, right? Like, everybody kind of, you think like, well, you should just be happy. Like, you, you worked so hard for this. You should just be happy. But, but there's, it's so much more.

Abbe Feder: 14:17

So nuanced. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, now especially when I was going through it, there was not this huge infertility community. I was, I'm a millennial adjacent, let's just say. So I wasn't like at the height of Instagram when it was out, but now I'm like way more into it now. And there is this huge social media community of infertility, of infertility warriors supporting each other. Yeah. I felt like, especially when my podcast came out and there were no other fertility podcasts and like my husband and I really became a voice for infertile couples everywhere. I felt like I was really betraying that community when I got pregnant. Didn't post about it, my entire pregnancy. There's not one social media post to me. I mean, now there are, but like. I felt like, how could I be a spokesperson for this community and now be like slapping them in the face with my news?

Colleen: 15:10

yeah, yeah.

Abbe Feder: 15:14

years, and helping other people through it to know, much like I said to you just now, like, your pregnancies were never bad news. To me, they were just a reminder that I was so sad. so I think in terms of how to handle and support, acknowledging the journey is everything. So, you know, when it's funny, I'm actually writing a piece right now about somebody who I saw in the fertility clinic, and then she came out and made a huge pregnancy announcement that was like so obnoxious and hideous. And has since gone on to be a huge like mom fluencer has never acknowledged that she struggled to get there and that feels like a betrayal to, to me, to the community. Obviously, I'm not going to out her, but I could, um, no, I'm just kidding. I would never, it's like. know, I remember like Anne Hathaway, when Anne Hathaway got pregnant with her second child, she was like, for any of you who are struggling, just know that neither path to my kid was a straight line, that's all, you don't even have to go into detail, but it's like, yes, you're in it with us. Like you get it. And that feels like less betrayal to the community. And so think that part of the reason I became so outspoken about infertility was because I want people to be aware of what to do and how to say and all the things. And don't ever want to abandon this community. It, it, it is. Like they say, worst club, best members. And yeah, I have my happy ending, but I still suffer. I still have the disease of infertility and I was so deeply entrenched and so traumatized by it. I can't just let it go and it will be part of my life forever now. And so I just feel like honoring that is the way to go, you know?

Colleen: 17:01

Yeah, I, I will say like, this has opened like a huge wide world and door for me, just like knowing you and watching you and learning from you constantly that I, I'm so much more like. Aware and self aware and about how you talk to people and how you treat people and, you know, like just things like, you know, if you see somebody who looks pregnant, like. Maybe don't say anything to them ever. You just don't need to, because one, you don't know what they're going through or two, maybe they just lost a pregnancy and they still look pregnant or, you know, like there's so much that could be going on. But you know, I. Well, I, I think everybody has their own pregnancy stories and like, you know, I thought that I had a hard time getting pregnant with our first and had lost prior to the first. And I remember even just having that feeling of, I had a friend who I went to high school with that lived near me in San Francisco and I, in my mind had planned this birth announcement on Mother's Day. And that was like. I was so excited about this. And then I lost that pregnancy and then she made a birth announcement on Mother's Day and I was like, yes, gutted. But like for somebody to experience that for years is like so intense. So I think it's really important to remember people are just, just be nice to people, like,

Abbe Feder: 18:31

Yeah, And I think to that point, like when I wrote that blog thing on what not to say to people going through infertility or loss is don't say nothing either. Don't ignore it. Right? If you know, you might not know the right thing to say. And I think that is There's, there's nothing wrong with that. And you say, I don't know the right thing to say, but I don't want you to think that this is off my mind. Like I've really been thinking about you. Because we all just want to feel seen and loved. And so when you ignore it, you usually think you're doing the right thing. Like I don't want to bring it up. I don't want to make them feel bad. definitely not

Cheryl: 19:05

me, they're thinking about it.

Colleen: 19:07

Yeah.

Cheryl: 19:08

You're not going to remind them that they're going through it bring it up. going to like, hopefully their heart will feel a little bit of a squeeze, a little bit of a hug that like they're acknowledged and thought of by someone.

Abbe Feder: 19:21

Exactly. I don't know how your termination went, like how far along you were. Were you at a, how far along were you when you had to terminate?

Cheryl: 19:29

I truly don't even know. It was not, it was an unplanned pregnancy and I was diagnosed with kidney disease that was aggressive and needed treatment on the same day I found out I was pregnant.

Abbe Feder: 19:40

Oh, wow.

Cheryl: 19:41

I the doctor gave me all the medicine to start the treatment for the kidney disease and he said, you, you need to get on birth control. You cannot get pregnant on any of these medications. And I said, okay. And I was late, but there was just a lot of stress happening in my life. My friends girlfriend had just been diagnosed with cancer. We had just lost a friend and I was like trying to figure out what was going on with my body. Cause I'd been unwell for several months finally was getting the results that day, so I was like period will come after like this is resolved when I, my mom and I, and my husband, now my husband, but my boyfriend at the time left the appointment, he went back to work and my mom and I went to the pharmacy to pick up the medication or to drop off the prescriptions and I said, you know, I better get a pregnancy test before I start any of these. And I took the test and it was immediately positive and,

Abbe Feder: 20:29

Yeah.

Cheryl: 20:32

and I was like, so twist plot twist and he was like, you cannot be pregnant right now. Like you are unwell. And so he, you know, encouraged me to call my doctor and make an appointment. And I did. And well, I tried to, and they said, we don't do those. You can't have that. And I was like, okay, well, my doctor told me I have like, I need to. And they wanted to bring me in and see the perinatologist and like a better read on things. But I was told that like the baby wouldn't survive and I likely like could die as well. So I was terrified. And for me. was like, well, this is my baby. Now I want to protect it. Like you immediately feel the connection as a mom. my husband and my mom both were like, no, hard. No, this isn't happening. Like you first, my husband's like, I don't want to like, even if the baby survived and you didn't, I'm not here for that. Like I'm here for you first. And he, my kidney doctor eventually called my. OB and he's a saint. He called her. She, they argued with each other on the phone. She held her ground, said, no, nobody in this county will do it. Oh, well, she had tried to refer me to Planned Parenthood. And so I had made an appointment there.

Abbe Feder: 21:49

California at the time?

Cheryl: 21:50

I was in California on the central coast in California. this was in 2012, 2013. Like it wasn't that long ago. It was for me as a sick person. So they sent me to. Planned Parenthood. I made the appointment there. My therapist was the first one to red flag that and say, you can't do that, Cheryl. There's going to be picketers. Like you're going to show up for this very traumatic thing that you have to do and there's going to be picketers there. You can't go through that. And my doctor called to check on me and I told him all this and he called the doctor. They fought on the phone. He hung up on her. found me a new doctor, called me like 20 minutes later and he's like, so you have a new doctor. And this is who it is. And so when I called that office, I said, Hey, this is Cheryl, whatever. And they said, Oh, just a minute. I was transferred to the manager of the office. I never had to explain my story again. My hand was held and I was loved the whole way through it from there. But yeah, in 2013 in California.

Abbe Feder: 22:45

Yeah.

Cheryl: 22:46

this hard for me to get a medically necessary termination. even on the books, when I signed into the hospital, I think they fibbed about what I was there for, because the woman congratulated me when I got there. She's like, wow, you look great. She thought it was there for a C section. And I was like, excuse me, where's your bathroom? And I. Took off and obviously lost my mind and my husband's like no no That's not what we're here for and then that was the same fucking woman that walked me back was like my person and then of course, she's like apologizing and I said to her I said I can't make you feel better about this. Like I'm

Abbe Feder: 23:22

Good for you.

Cheryl: 23:24

Struggling to to be alive right now. I cannot make you feel better about this So you need to just stop talking to me

Colleen: 23:30

My God. I would have

Cheryl: 23:31

fuck

Colleen: 23:32

murdered that woman. I would have just.

Cheryl: 23:35

I mean, she didn't do it. She didn't do it on purpose, but like, then she needed, you know,

Abbe Feder: 23:40

that people say. She thought she was saying the right thing. You look great. Fuck

Cheryl: 23:43

wow, you look great. Oh, great. Cause I'm like probably nine weeks pregnant and I'm about to say goodbye to this.

Colleen: 23:49

Yeah,

Cheryl: 23:49

And I don't want to. So

Colleen: 23:52

so it's that you just never know, right? Like that is the lesson. That is the reality of it is like, you just, you can't, you don't know what anybody is feeling about any situation because you could have been, you know, like you could have been pregnant and having a C section, but like, maybe that was like, maybe it was stillborn or maybe there was, you know, like, there's so much.

Cheryl: 24:17

if I looked that good when I was delivering my baby, chances are somebody was very malnourished.

Colleen: 24:23

Yeah. Um,

Abbe Feder: 24:26

Or maybe you're having trauma about having a C section, which lots of women have.

Colleen: 24:29

yeah.

Cheryl: 24:30

sure.

Abbe Feder: 24:31

of them, but a lot of women do. So

Cheryl: 24:33

I am. I have very traumatic.

Abbe Feder: 24:35

Yeah. Yeah.

Cheryl: 24:37

Yeah. I mean, it's just, you don't, you don't know what anybody's going through. And while I've never suffered infertility. did get a peek into like, I was not allowed to be pregnant for a number of years while I was recovering and getting better. And so like I had the same like wince every time somebody announced a pregnancy or, you know, it was just that, that gut punch having to stay off social media and unfollow people while they're going through their journey that you've dreamed about for so long and not knowing if you'll ever get it and just real. Real gnarly shit. then you'd be on the other side of it and be like, fuck, these kids drive me nuts.

Abbe Feder: 25:17

right.

Cheryl: 25:17

I wanted it for so long. Like I feel so guilty when I say it. It's so,

Abbe Feder: 25:22

You're

Cheryl: 25:22

all so confusing.

Colleen: 25:24

Yeah, well, parenting is fucking hard. Abbe, I want you to go back to something that you touched upon when you were talking about, like, you said that you had, like, the disease of infertility, but remind me of the phrase that it is when there's like no, no, no medical explanation for, for why you have it.

Abbe Feder: 25:46

Yeah. Unexplained infertility,

Colleen: 25:48

And how common is that? Yeah. Yours was tired. Yours

Abbe Feder: 25:53

You might not have gotten to the bottom of it. at this point, it doesn't really matter in my story, but having unexplained infertility is just such a bummer. I mean, obviously you don't want something to be wrong, but there's like troubleshoot it, which is so, so hard. and. I was, you know, I, I also, we don't have to get into the rabbit hole of this, but I did have a very traumatic birth and I did have to have an emergency hysterectomy after I gave birth to my twins and which. Like I'm very at peace with I got what I needed. My uterus was like, I'm done girl. We've been through a lot together. I'm out. Um,

Colleen: 26:35

was done.

Abbe Feder: 26:36

yeah, it was like, you done it. We were good. So I'm really okay with it, but I had it sent to pathology and I was convinced that like, they were going to find some rare something or like hidden endometriosis or, and that was going to be the reason that this and they didn't find anything. It was like. fine. Husband was checked for everything was fine. My immune says like literally everything you can check for was checked unexplained infertility, which is really like, I felt like I was in a permanent state of grief about it because it's like if you had God forbid cancer and we're living with that every day and there was, is out of your control and it meant that your life wasn't going to look the way that you wanted it to, you would understand that Is grief, And so infertility and unexplained infertility was really the same thing. I felt my, I have this disease and my life's not going to look the way that I want it to. And I don't know if it's ever going to be fixable, troubleshootable, all the things. And so again, like, yes, it was. And I got what I wanted and I got what I came for, but I still. I'm an infertile and that, you know, yes, I had a miracle happen, but

Colleen: 27:43

Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 27:44

I, it became so much a part of who I am. I will never not be a part of the infertility community.

Colleen: 27:49

and I think that's important for people to, to know, right? Like, because, you know, you've gone through this journey and that's so much of what you coach up to and with. But like, People listening to this, like, you know, our, however many lessons we have in our four men listeners, like they're, they might not know, right? Like that, that is even a thing, right? Like you went and they couldn't be searching and can searching and search and you did, right? Even till the very end, but. But to understand and to know, like, this is actually a thing and there's other people out there that, that also, you know, like, this is their story as well. I mean, I can only imagine that that, well, that doesn't bring relief. It brings some sort of a little bit of a

Cheryl: 28:37

Camaraderie.

Abbe Feder: 28:37

in some way.

Colleen: 28:39

something, right?

Abbe Feder: 28:42

For sure. Again, like you just want to feel seen. Right. So like knowing you're not alone in something makes you feel seen for sure.

Colleen: 28:49

And then so talk to us about your coaching. So like, who are like, who are your clients? How do they, what kind of coaching do you do with them? And like, like you said, you coach people even after they've had, you know, like through their pregnancies or whatever, like, talk to us about, about how you're a resource for people.

Abbe Feder: 29:09

Totally. Totally. So from a business perspective, I've been in business a little over three years. it's shifted a little bit because my whole thing is that I want to meet people where they are. And so it's taken me a little while to figure out what that looks like. I'm in a very good groove right now, but it might change again. And the way that I work with people, I, I generally work in three, six, or 12 month packages with people. crazy because I would say probably 80 percent start with a 3 month and end up on a 6 month or a 12 month or start with a 6 month and end up on a 12 month, nobody wants to sign on with me and thinking they're going to be dealing with this in a year, right? Like, when I offer a 12 month or a 12 months, like my baby will be born by then. And you're right. But in case they're not, because the reality is, like I said earlier, everything takes longer than you want it to. And if something gets messed up in one cycle, sometimes you have to wait for a whole nother cycle, right? 28 days to retest or whatever it might be. And so really important to me that in that time I build a relationship with my clients. This is not like a. psychiatrists or psychologists where you check in once a week and at three o'clock on Thursdays, you feel great. But the rest of the week, you're like, Oh, I can't wait to bring that to therapy. Right. I'm here for you 24 seven. Do I answer 24 seven? No, of course I have boundaries and limits too. Although I do sometimes wake up in the middle of the night and there's like a text from a client and I'm like, Oh, I'll just write them back. It's 4am. Who cares? Because I, I mean, they become my family and. walk them through, I mean, everybody comes to me at a different phase. And I really say that I'm an infertility coach, less of a fertility coach, because the distinction being fertility coach is generally going to probably talk with you about like balancing your hormones, getting on a great nutrition plan, finding the right support, all of which we talk about. But by the time you come to me, you've already had some kind of loss. Maybe you're already at the doctor. Maybe you need a new doctor. I get a lot of secondary infertility patients which is really its own really special thing. When you had no problem the first time getting pregnant are having trouble the second time, there's a lot of guilt associated with that. Like, well, I should just be grateful for what I have. And like, no, yes, you should. And you're entitled to whatever family you want. So working through that with people And also that's really hard because you're going through infertility and mothering at the same is very complex, very complex. so I really like to, I offer a three month plan because sometimes somebody comes to me and they're like, look, I have one embryo left. I don't know what to do with it. I don't know if I should stay at the doctor. I am like, let's spend the next couple of months figuring out what my best shot is with this one chance. Usually what we learn is that. Even if there's one embryo left, maybe there's something else you're willing to do. Maybe you wanna go test out a different doctor, maybe you wanna do another egg retrieval. All these things, and it ends up being more than three months. But I offer it because sometimes there's just like a quick decision that needs to be made. You need some handholding and guidance through it, and we see what happens. But on average, I'm with people for, I would say a year, in best case scenario, I'm like, look, let's say you pay for my coaching and next week you get pregnant. Wouldn't you still think it was worth it? Like, and then I'll walk you through the beginning stages of pregnancy, which is huge as well. So it's very high touch. I become very close with the people. I'm available to them all the time. They do become like family. And and I love it. I, I mean, like I keep all of my, you know, I just got like a baby shower invitation for one of my clients. And I just got, have a client who's a single mom by choice who. Valentine's day spread like roses everywhere with her baby in between and was, she hadn't done a birth announcement. She was like terrified to do it. And so the baby's already four months old, but she sent that to everybody. And like, I got both of those in the same day and I was like a blubbering mess, just crying and crying and crying. And of course I send them pictures to my clients of my like ugly cry face

Colleen: 33:01

I'm going to cry right now. I'm like,

Abbe Feder: 33:03

Isn't that amazing?

Colleen: 33:06

it's incredible. So if there's somebody in our life who is experiencing fertility, like, what, what should we, well, one, we should just tell them to come to you. And then, How's the best, I mean, like give us just like some quick tips. Cause I know that this is very nuanced, but like, how are you supporting somebody? Like what's, what's the best way to be like a supportive friend or sister or mom or aunt or dad, whatever.

Abbe Feder: 33:39

Yeah. so I think this goes for anything that anyone's going through always err on the side of showing up just show up and I think kind of to the point before of Just be honest. Just like, I remember when one of my best friends was going through a divorce and I had no clue what to say. And I was really gutted by the divorce, let alone what they were going through.

Colleen: 33:58

Yeah,

Abbe Feder: 33:59

they didn't feel like talking about it. I called them every day and they let, let it go to voicemail every day. And I would leave a voicemail every day. You don't need to call me back. I'm thinking of you. I love you. And I'm going to call you tomorrow. You don't need to call me back. I'm like every single day and I might've driven them crazy, but I don't care because I let, let it drive them crazy that way. Then being like, where the fuck is Abbe and why isn't she calling? I think similarly, you know, especially if like, if you have a friend who's experiencing a loss and you don't know what to do, like I'm always in favor of the, I'm at target right now. I'm buying your favorite. Get candy and I'm buying you a pair of cozy socks. What else can I get you while I'm here? I'll be at your place in an hour. Like don't give them choice even because making decisions is hard enough when you're in a good place, let alone when you're in like the pits of it all. And just show up. And if they're like, no, no, I'm good. I don't need anything. You just drop it off at their house with a note. You know, don't say like my least favorite thing is like, let me know what I can do. keep me posted, like then it's on me. I don't want to let you know what you can do and I don't want to keep you posted. I'm dealing with my own shit. Just fucking show up. And that is like the key to life that I learned from infertility, honestly, like just show up in whatever way works. And like the friend struggling has the bandwidth to say what they need and how they want you to show up, great chances are they don't. So do what you think is right because even if it's not, it's better than not doing anything at all. You know?

Colleen: 35:26

Yes. I mean, I mean, that's just amazing life advice for everything. Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 35:32

And I think that's what's so ironic about infertility. Everyone think there's like life advice and then infertility is different. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to touch it. I don't want to make them feel uncomfortable. Like the same with anything you're going through in life. Everyone's dancing around it. It's the same thing. And you know, you asked for like parents there is a, an ebook on my website. how to support a loved one struggling to conceive. So, like, for parents, siblings, best friends out there, check out my website because I think it's a really good resource. and it says the same thing of, like, first of all, even being attuned to asking, how should I handle this, is a step ahead of a lot of other people. But from a parent perspective, and I talk with my mom about this all the time, in fact, I've been begging her to come on my podcast to talk about what it was like to support me going through it. And she is going to do it. We're going to do a Mother's Day episode. My mom's a therapist. Couldn't be a more warm, caring, open person, couldn't be more attuned to like the needs of other people and never, and still miss the mark. And so she didn't know, and she was so careful and so afraid to say the wrong thing, the right thing, the, this thing, that thing. And, and so even in the best case of scenarios, the parent, it's a very complicated situation. And so I think for parents to just know that like, they might fuck up. And that it's just, right, it's a, it's a phase where they might feel like they're doing everything wrong. It won't be forever. And that like, again, just showing up. If your kids like, forget it, I don't need you. I don't this. Just, you know, send them their favorite meal, buy them a door dash gift card, put the favorite ice cream on the porch, you know, whatever it might be. It just shows that you want to do the right thing, even if you're missing the mark. So

Colleen: 37:07

Yeah. Let's talk about Alabama. Oh, I'm

Abbe Feder: 37:12

not sweet home, Alabama.

Colleen: 37:14

not anymore. So I know you told us before we started that you recorded an episode four days ago and now everything's already changed.

Abbe Feder: 37:24

crazy.

Colleen: 37:25

I, give us a little bit of what we think is happening right now today. There and then

Abbe Feder: 37:33

it down into like the overarching points. There was a case Supposedly, somebody broke into a fertility clinic, got out a tank of embryos, dropped it on the floor, and the embryos disintegrated. The parents of those embryos, and I use the term parents because, yes, they created those embryos, I don't use it because those were children in the tank, sued for wrongful death. And the first court was like, this is terrible what happened to you, but these aren't children, so we can't really call it a wrongful death. And by the way, I do think there should be consequences for the action of this happening, like, you get a free cycle to make more embryos if you can, or,

Cheryl: 38:19

Make it right. Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 38:20

Right? Like there should be something, but wrongful death implies that it is a child and not a cluster of cells living in a tank. And so it went to the appellate court and then ultimately to the Supreme Court and the Supreme Court said, yes, clusters of cells. Can be treated the same as human children.

Colleen: 38:41

the Alabama Supreme court.

Abbe Feder: 38:43

The Alabama Supreme Court, meaning the family who sued won in a wrongful death suit. But what that meant, and what I don't think people even thought about, was that if you are deciding that these clusters of cells are children, what protections do they have? you claim them on your tax return? If one dies in, like, sometimes we know when you're an embryologist and you're gonna have a transfer of an embryo the next day, you take it out at night, you let it thaw. So that it can go into the woman the next day it doesn't make it is the embryologist a murderer and like can there be Charges filed against the embryologist these sound like insane But the problem is that when you put it into black and

Colleen: 39:26

Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 39:26

people can use it to their advantage So anyone who has an agenda where they are anti reproductive technology could use it And say that we're all murderers because you had a miscarriage because your transfer failed, whatever the things are. I

Cheryl: 39:40

In some people's opinion,

Abbe Feder: 39:42

know. Because, and, it was to save your own life. And, you know, this is where religion gets so tricky. Because, like, I'm Jewish, and in the Jewish faith, very clear the mother's life always takes precedent until the baby takes its first breath. Like that is a very clear delineation I'm so grateful for that. And I understand it might be different, but also like we're not living in 200, you know, living now. And so there has to be room for gray area and nuance and it can't just be a black and white. Yeah. You killed a child that was a cluster of eight cells that might've taken you five years and a hundred thousand dollars to make, by the way. wants to lose that embryo, you know,

Colleen: 40:23

Yeah.

Abbe Feder: 40:24

So because of this, all the fertility clinics in Alabama basically had to close because they were like, we don't know if we're going to get arrested for a mistake or if the embryo thaws and, or doesn't survive the thaw.

Cheryl: 40:41

or like you never insert it into a body to, become an actual life. Like, what are we doing with all, and I already know that that's a really interesting debate, is like, what are, what's happening with all these embryos that are Not going to be you.

Abbe Feder: 40:57

right. Like, and there's, you know, you can donate them to science. You can donate them to a human. You can discard them completely. Or part of the reason we do IVF is to get the best quality embryo. If you've suffered loss after loss, after loss, there could be a problem with your embryos. And so the whole reason the science was invented was to get to the embryo that is the most viable option for your pregnancy. What happens to the ones that aren't going to be viable? You might be forced to put them in knowing you're going to miscarry because they won't discard them and put them into the abnormal category. I mean, it's so complex and nuanced and ass backwards, right? Anyway, last night, episode of the podcast is coming out actually today with a lot of reaction to the Alabama. Last night, thank God, another senator introduced a bill basically protecting doctors to continue to do IVF in Alabama. However It's now been 10 days since the ruling. So imagine you're a woman or a couple, you've been struggling for three years. You finally got enough money to do IVF. You finally did IVF. Your body's in the perfect position. You've been on meds for three months and you're ready to transfer and your clinic shuts down.

Colleen: 42:11

Oh

Abbe Feder: 42:12

I mean, and this is, this is what the, a lot of the outrage is because a lot of these people are deeply affected and all they want is that for an embryo to become a child. That's all they want. So it's been really, really jarring. There's a huge protest in Alabama this morning, which I can't wait to hear. At being in L. A. The one good thing is like I get the news early because it's already happened on the There were like big protests at the Alabama Supreme Court. Like, I'm really curious to see how that went and I'm grateful. And this was a very Republican senator who introduced this bill. Protecting the doctor. So that makes me feel good. But I also feel like it was a Hail Mary, like they needed to figure something out fast, right? like, again, this infertility community banded together so strongly, like there were clinics, you were talking about, you heard me say, and this is true. A clinic in Seattle was like, if anybody needs to their embryos out of state to make sure that they're safe, we will pay for it for you if you live in Alabama. And it was so popular that they ran out of tanks. They couldn't keep offering it because so many people come up on it. I mean, it's crazy.

Colleen: 43:17

it's so weird too, because like, if anything could be more pro life in the real definition of that word, this is it, right? Like, you're literally trying to make more babies and more life. Like,

Abbe Feder: 43:33

Exactly.

Colleen: 43:34

bizarre. Like, I just, my brain can't wrap around. It's, maybe it's naive, but like, just my brain cannot wrap around the fact that people could see this. Well, one could think that like these. These embryos were children. And I understand like law, but like, what are we doing? Like, are we doing to people?

Cheryl: 43:59

are we doing in general? What, what are we doing in this country? Right.

Abbe Feder: 44:03

it comes down to, and I, I hate being like a conspiracy theorist, but, and I hate. Reducing it down to something so basic, but I really do feel it has to do with control. And like these men who have never been through IVF, who don't understand what it is, who are just trying to make it seem like they're so pro life are going on these tangents. They do not understand it. They don't understand the nuance. They don't, and it's kind of the same with insurance companies, like men who are at the heads of insurance companies are making decisions about which benefits should be covered for IVF and which shouldn't. And they've never been through it or had any experience with it. It makes no sense. I could go on this soapbox for, like, days, P. S.

Colleen: 44:41

And you see in very, like a very small portion, like, have you seen those interviews, like the, the, I forgot who it is, that woman on the street. Who's like, ask men questions. Like, where does it go? Or can, can, can a woman pee with a tampon in, and they like. Have no idea.

Abbe Feder: 45:00

I think it was something like 35 percent said no, 35 percent of men said, no, you can't pee with a tampon in. And I'm like,

Colleen: 45:09

Yeah. And then they were like, you vote. Are you voting? And they were all like, yeah, yeah. I'm voting. Yeah. Voting. Oh my God. No wonder we're where we are back again,

Abbe Feder: 45:22

Yeah.

Colleen: 45:22

that's anyway, there's, there's so much to that, but I wanted to just, you know, get your perspective and get, give you as the expert, like, you know, a little bit of understanding because I think it's important for us to talk about, you know, we're predominantly like a woman and entrepreneurial podcast, but I think this is so intertwined. We talk about entrepreneurs. Lives being so intertwined with their business, right? Like

Abbe Feder: 45:46

Yes.

Colleen: 45:47

I know plenty of women who are entrepreneurs who have done IVF who, you know, like this is such a big part of their life. And yet they're still having to, you know, like build a business.

Abbe Feder: 45:57

Well, especially as, as women. Choose to have careers more than they ever used to. They're waiting a little bit longer to have children. And a lot of us are lucky enough to be moms. And I think it's so important to talk about this from an entrepreneur perspective too, because I don't want my son to ever become a human who's voting that doesn't know that you can pee with a tampon in. So it's important that we talk about this now because we have to figure out how we're going to start educating the next generation so that that does not continue to happen.

Colleen: 46:25

and I will get, and this is my soapbox as a mom of boys because I'm a mom of two boys and I, you know, when I found out I was pregnant with Vivian, I, I was like, yes, I'm going to raise this strong girl. I'm like, I got this. No big deal. When I got pregnant with Everett, I was terrified. Because it was a really weird perspective, but I was like, I'm about to raise, you know, he's, he's Latino because my husband's Latino, but a white presenting man into the universe.

Abbe Feder: 46:56

Yeah.

Colleen: 46:57

And I felt like that was such a big responsibility to make sure that he wasn't an asshole, that he wasn't you know, like, that he wasn't disrespectful, that he was intelligent, that he was, and I'm like, oh, my God, like, during that time, my college. Had this fraternity situation where all these boys were in this fraternity and there were like strippers and the older boys were forcing the younger boys to do really awful things, right? And I just, and I was pregnant, you know, and you're all hormonal. And I'm like, Oh my God. Like I wanna be able to raise a son who can walk out of that room confidently.

Abbe Feder: 47:36

Yes. Yes.

Colleen: 47:38

like that's such a big responsibility. But there were boys in there who probably were terrified or scared or whatever, but they didn't feel like they could walk away or they didn't feel like they had the strength or the ability or the power. And so they violated this woman or like, whatever, all these awful things happen. And I'm like, that's somebody's son. Like, not that those parents did anything wrong, but holy shit, it's a big responsibility and it's a big as a mom, as a mom, but also as a mom of boys to really make sure that we're creating a next generation of men that are empathetic and smart and dynamic, kind, and not assholes.

Abbe Feder: 48:21

And confident. Like, confident. I think we, we spent so much time saying we have to teach our female children confidence, which we do, that we sort of forgot that met, like, you said it so perfectly, like, I want to raise a boy that feels comfortable walking out of that room and, and I think it's really hard to raise a boy like that, you know?

Cheryl: 48:41

just was listening to a clip from Gary Vee this morning and he was like, how we do this is like we celebrate the kindness in the good things like fucking crazy. So like, yes, we want them to get good grades and did it. Okay, whatever. But no, when you see that boy stop and open the door for an older person, like you cheer that on, you tell your friends, you. Treat them like a fucking king for doing that like you make those those things we reward the behaviors We want to see like crazy Okay.

Colleen: 49:11

I tell my son Everett, cause Everett's eight now and Jackson's five, so I don't tell him yet, but I tell him very frequently so much that he like rolls his eyes at me, but I tell him, you know, Everett, you are so smart and you are so handsome and you're so good at sports. I said, but you're so kind and the most important thing to be is kind. And he's just like, yes, mommy. And I'm like, I'm just going to tell you that every single day until you're like 75, you know, because

Abbe Feder: 49:40

Yeah.

Colleen: 49:41

that's it, Right. Because he is, he is those things, but I want him to really understand that, like kindness is everything that we're talking about today, right? It's how we're treating people. It's how we're voting. It's how we're thinking about

Abbe Feder: 49:56

It's huge. It's everything.

Colleen: 49:57

everything.

Abbe Feder: 49:59

Yeah.

Cheryl: 50:00

Well, we'd love to keep you forever Abbe, but I there on agenda today So where can connect with you

Abbe Feder: 50:07

Yeah.

Cheryl: 50:08

they want to

Abbe Feder: 50:10

I'm a, like I said, love me some Instagram. My company's in circle fertility, I N C I R C L E. I know who wrote that down, but it's in circle, not end circle in circle fertility. And then my name, Abbe feeder which I'm sure you guys will write somewhere find me on Instagram DM me. Let me help you lighten the load. If you're going through the shits of infertility. You can always grab a call with me to see if we're a good fit. And if you need help supporting other people, by all means, check out my resources on incirclefertility.com. and

Colleen: 50:39

And your podcast, tell us about your, awesome,

Abbe Feder: 50:43

uh, um, my podcast is called the fertility chick. It's available everywhere. My previous podcast. If you want to get into the real nitty gritty of what it's like to go through infertility, like I did with my husband is called maculate conception and it's available on audible.

Cheryl: 50:57

I love it. Thank you so much and

Abbe Feder: 51:01

Yay. Thank

Cheryl: 51:04

Bye guys